Wine in the Word: Interview with Gisela Kreglinger

welcome back to another episode of Christian Natural Health today I'm very pleased to have Giza keslinger who grew

up on a winery in Franconia Germany where her family is family has been crafting wine for many generations she

holds two master's degrees in biblical studies from Regent College and a PhD in historical theology from the University

of St Andrews she teaches Christian spirituality in the academy churches on our annual wine pilgrimages and every

time an opportunity opens up around the dinner table preferably with a glass of well-crafted wine to inspire her musings

on food faith and the importance of cultivating joy and conviviality she is the author of cup overflowing Wine's

place in the faith feasting and fellowship the spirituality of wine and the soul of wine welcome gisla so

pleased to have you with us Lauren it is wonderful to be with you for sure so

we're gonna talk today about wines place in scripture clearly so why I mean I

assume that the reason why you were inspired to do this is because of your background where you were so immersed in wine growing up so you I assume became

passionate about that and then wanted to to see the overlap or tell us a little bit about that yeah I grew up on a

winery in h Bavaria and I grew up in the Lutheran Church okay so in um the

context that I grew up Faith and wine were always steeply

interwoven yeah and um you know my family has been making wine for the

Lord's Supper for many generations ations and I remember very vividly my

mother um during Harvest Time going out into the vineyard and cutting off um

branches with beautiful grape cluster to take to the church to decorate The Altar

for Harvest Thanksgiving service and there was always this very deep sense that the world of wine and the winery

and agriculture that I grew up in and the world of Faith belong together and

then I grew up with a Tasting Room you know know we had a Tasting Room people came every day to taste wines and then

there were wine tastings and celebrations in Gatherings all the time

and I just witnessed from a very early age how a g you know Germans can be very

serious a little uptight in um um how um gathering together and um sampling wine

how that would just transform the whole group from Fairly you know quiet uptight

you know this sense of you know we we try to give this air that we have it all together and then with every wine people

would relax more quickly and confessions came

more easily confessions both delight and joy but also confessions of failure and

loss and there was this both joyous um momentum I call it

conviviality but also um the vulnerability that came you know it

wasn't about getting drunk and shutting down it actually opened people's lives up and they open up to one another and

beautiful conversations emerged and so that was just so deeply deeply ingrained

in me and you know I thought that was normal everyone grew up that way yeah

and then you know when I studied abroad I I studied um

theology at Region College in Vancouver and then I taught at a seminary in the

American South where alcohol was not allowed and I was just you know so

surprised and I I felt there was something missing I felt our faculty

meetings were always so formal and stiff and people you know try to get away as

soon as they could well where I grew up you know you get together even in academic context sure having a good time

start conversations and then you start arguing about things and then you have another glass of wine

people and they really hash out their arguments and they're not afraid to sort

of you know yeah drop that in a vision a little bit and I I felt like there was just a depth of um knowing a depth of um

vulnerability a depth of Celebration a depth of community that I think is

lacking and um so I think and then in the theology when I studied theology I

was like wow this is very much about about the intellectual ascent and I felt

that there was there was so much missing and um no one talked about wine and wine

is the most talked about food in the Bible there are nearly a thousand

references to wine and wine related themes it is woven throughout scripture and I'm like why is no Theologian

talking about that I mean there were little studies done you know maybe a little bit about wine in the Bible or

you know in the North America more why wine is non-alcoholic in the Bible you

know things like that which is of course not true archaeology us very clearly that it

wasn't but of course there's history to why people did that very traumatic history and I talk about that in my book

cup overflowing and so I really felt um that at some point I wanted to fill that Gap

I enjoy writing about things that no one has written about or areas like my PhD was on George McDonald

as a theologian and nice have written about that and so I I like doing that so

I felt like um having grown up um on a Family Winery and I've always had a deep

faith I think God just I've always asked hard questions I always you know was so

frustrated frustrated I said you know if PE if God created the world and everything is good well where does the

snake come from from and where those dark you know I mean those are the kind of questions that I would ask as a child

I think God put things in me when I was very young and so as I you know became a

theologian and I taught Christian spirituality I realized that this is a unique opportunity for me because I

understand both the world of wine which is very complex and the world of theology it's very complex and there are

actually a lot of parallels you know there's a reason why wine is used to

talk about the kingdom yeah so let's use that as a jumping off point so uh you already

alluded to Wine being part of the Lord's Supper uh and you guys were involved in that I think most almost every church

that I've ever been in uses juice not wine uh but can you tell us a little bit about why that element was used for the

symbolism of Jesus blood um wine has always been in the

great civilization considered to be a very very valuable um drink because of

its potential for uh Beauty and complexity and I think what it does it

shapes it shapes communities it shapes civilizations um that's how

conversations happen that's how collabor imaginative collaboration happens so

even in the biblical world view um you know wine was also understood as

something very esteemed you know from very early on um when um the Patriarchs

spoke blessings over their children to pass on God's blessing um wine was

included in that and that you know that that shows you how aware they were that

wine is something very important for God shaping a people um because it adds an

incredible dimension of um of beauty of conviviality um of culture I think and

so you know when the spies um you know when Moses was at the border

of the promised land and sent out the spies they were sent out during Harvest Time and they came to the Valley of esol

the very uh the Valley of the grape cluster and the spies brought back a

massive grape cluster on a pole and that was a sure sign that this land was

blessed by God so you have to keep that in mind that um there was already this

understanding that wine was a very very special drink unlike um a beer um and um

that's what was very desirable about the promised land and so when they settled

into the land they started growing um you know uh Vines and Vineyards and

there was this ideal Vision you know that every family could sit under their own Vine in Fick tree and have a modest

abundance so it was a vision not of grand land owners and massive Productions but humble realities that um

that that provided a modest abundance for celebrations so I think that's an important background to have and so when

um by the time of Jesus when the um when the Israelites celebrated the Passover

meal for example which is the foundation of course for the Lord's Supper um by um

his time um four cups of wine were included to retell and to re enact the

story of The Exodus and how God delivered his people out of bondage and

brought them to the promised land and so the wine really both helped to tell the story but also helped them to enter into

that joyful celebration even at a time when they were occupied by the Romans

but they needed to cultivate that that that remembrance of God is our savior

and to celebrate that um that hope that he's with them in the present and that

he will deliver them once more the the the prophets um the the

prophets had talked about God's deliverance and that he would send a messiah and um something that would

accompany the Messiah was feasting and wine flowing down the mountains this

would be a sign that God would be present and bring Salvation once more so

when Jesus steps onto the scene and I want to start with maybe the wedding Feast um the first miracle that he

performs is at a wedding feast and the prophets had talked about you know this

wedding Feast this great feast between um God our bridegroom and his people as

the bride and so when Jesus performs this first miracle and Reveals His glory

God's glory you know he addresses those hopes of the prophets that had spoken

about the Messiah the anointed one who would save them once more so already we

see in this miracle that Jesus um uses the Bounty of Creation in the beautiful

gift of wine to speak about who he is and what he has come to do so

salvation is um spoken of in terms of an abundance of wine so salvation is not

just to get into the door of God's people this is about life

um that flourishes a life where we can celebrate that we're God's people and

rejoice that God is with us it's not just about surviving it's a it um the

Christian life is about so much more and so when Jesus um you know um lifts up

the cup at the Passover meal and then says to his disciples this is the is is

the blood shed for you the blood of the Covenant and reinterprets it in light of

his own blood shed I think he elevates this already very precious gift to new

heights um that we um taste the goodness of God in shedding

Christ's blood in wine in the whole wine making process parallels so beautiful

the work that Christ has done on the cross just like grapes need to be crushed

pressed and transformed so Christ is crushed on the

cross and died and his death is being transformed into Resurrection Life so

it's really an incredibly powerful reality wine in the wine making process

to always take us into this precious sacrifice that Christ has given and to

um allow us to enter into that great mystery both in the suffering and death

but also in the resurrection power in the beauty in the abundance of life that

Christ wants to bring to us so I think this is something that um we haven't

really theologically talked about a lot and most people when they go to the Lord's Supper even in churches where

they are served wine it's not talked about there's a a rich rich tradition of

Christian Mystics that that have talked about them drinking from the Eucharistic

cup and having these incredible revelations in the body in an embodied

way about what Christ has done for them beautiful uh Reflections um Bernard of

clo um as a sterian Mystic from burgundy is one of them so I think we've sort of

because I think the Protestant tradition in particular is all about sort of the intellectual Ascent you know

we think by thinking through things and by thinking in our minds we're actually grasping it but we need to grasp it with

our body we need to grasp it with the very fibers of um of our our bodies and

um this is why um Christ invites us to

uh receive the forgiveness of sin and the healing of our lives through Bread

and Wine it's not just about an idea that we mull over in our head it's something that take into our bodies and

let you know just like wine and bread are taken into our bodies and

transformed into nourishment so is Christ's blood and his

presence here so that we can deeply take it into ourselves and allow the spirit

to transform us and heal us and set us free into this abundant and Beautiful

Life of Salvation that Christ wants to offer for us yeah and God is so big into

symbolism there's so many things where and all of the parables are illustrations of this as well where there's something that's very practical

and tangible that we can identify with and it's used as an analogy for some greater spiritual reality and it sounds

like wine is definitely one that is interwoven throughout scripture I want to come back to something you just said

a little bit back about how when the reenactment of the first Passover has

four glasses wine I wasn't aware of this can you expound on that a little bit more yeah there we do have um from that

period uh when Jesus Liv we do have writings that mention that four cups of

wine were used over the course of an evening you know they would retell and

reenact The Exodus story you know it wasn't just sort of a a quick thing they

probably spent hours you know preparing I mean you know they would bring their

sacrificial offering um to the sacrifice and then the lamb

that was ens slaughtered at the temple and then they would bring it and you know how the disciples and Jesus you

know they prepared you know the Passover meal that that there were lots of preparation and then they really spend

probably a very long evening you know retelling the story and then four cups of wine were included in that and that's

quite well known and even today you know when you go to a Passover celebrations

you will be served wine and then they would leave one wine cup at the end of

the Passover meal for the Prophet Elijah because okay they were hoping that God

would send yeah that Elijah would come or another Messiah would come you know and Jesus really has taken on that role

but even Jesus when he celebrates the Lord's Supper does something very similar he says I will not drink again

of this cup of wine until I drink it a new with you in my father's Kingdom again you have this um

eschatological hope this hope for the future that the work that Christ has

begun will be complete at the end of time when Christ will return and there

will be a great feast and Christ will wipe away all the tears from our eyes

and so we need to cultivate that hope once more and Christ offers us a cup of

wine to cultivate hope that God has not abandoned this world sometimes it feels

that way with all the turmoil going on but God has not abandoned this world and

so when we think about drinking a glass of wine always use it as a way to cultivate that hope that Christ who has

begun this good work he will complete it at the end of time so I think that's

beautiful again it's not just sort of this you know this idea in our heads

it's something that we need to experience with our whole bodies that hope and that joy for the Fulfillment of

things in the future so the uh the traditional view in I mean not every

denomination but there's a lot of them that do forbid it uh and don't drink at all so I assume the majority of this is

just because of the potential risk of drunkenness so they're trying to overcorrect is that true or is there

more to it than that this is a great great question Lauren and I actually um in cup overflowing I address

this this is a book for the North American context to help North Americans understand their particular with um

history with alcohol in the prohibition right now the prohibition was something very particular to the United States it

wasn't happening in Europe and um I mean it it also happened in um in Britain and

so here is what happened when the pilgrims came to North America on the East Coast they couldn't plant Vineyards

they wouldn't take the climate wasn't suitable for it so distilled Spirits

became the primary drink of Americans and so when America came of age the

Industrial Revolution was happening and for the first time in human history they

were able to mass-produce distilled spirits and make it readily available to

the gener population and that was not a good thing because in times of Crisis

and you know um people people got it's so much easier to get really really

drunk on distilled spirits but that became and still is such a primary drink in the US and so I I have a dumb

question so distilled Spirits I know wine is fermented grapes what is the

definition of a distilled spirit so what you do with this distilled spirits it's for example grain

okay you know or from um sugar beets or whatever

um that will be fermented and then the the the mash will then come into a

distill into a Distillery and that's where you know through evaporating you know with the

fermentation this alcohol um exists and then by heating it up it it it it it

evaporates and then you can still it out and then you have a very high percentage of alcohol in the beverage okay so

that's so the percent of alcohol is dramatically higher that's why it's easier to get drunk on it yes so yeah so

with whiskey and Brandy you know you you can have um 50% alcohol I mean obviously

they they water it down but when when it out of The Distillery it can be near to 100% I see

and that's very very um that can be very destructive and so I think this this

country America came of age on distilled spirits and that's what created a lot of

havoc and um the temperance movement first started in response to the abuse

of distilled spirits and not wine that's really important wine was only included

later but you know um and then of course the the the um the prohibition didn't

last that long but the effects of it in this country were really severe and um

you know the idea that um that wine was

nonalcoholic in the Bible only came about in that period that was that's a

very modern idea but you have to realize that a lot of trauma happened because of

the abuse of alcohol sure and destruction that it brought to families so a lot of people that still wrestle

with that they usually have trauma in the family and you know I live in in the

American South and there's hardly any family that has not been impacted by

alcohol abuse of one kind or another right so it is still a very very current

reality that we need to deal with and um in this culture we have really not

developed the wisdom um that a culture can and should like they have in mind

around what kind of alcohol is good to drink regularly right when are the times

what are the rituals that we should do that and and then also what are the boundaries around it yes absolutely uh

you know and that's again something that I um I've tried to address in my book up

overflowing I added an appendix because I think we need to as a church and families we need to talk about that we

need to talk about um I I'd be very care um I'm very very cautious about

distilled Spirits now I grew up I grew up on a winery and my I grew up my father actually had a Distillery we made

knops from pears apples plums and such but we only drank it very sparingly and

there were strict regulations from the government on how much um schnaps can be

produced and I think that's a really wise thing um when you look at the

history for example in Scotland they also got out of control with their whiskey distilleries once they had the

technology to to to drink more and the became very very heavy Drinkers and then

the government you know put heavy taxes on it and it

worked but anyhow um this is sort of the history of this country and I think we need to sort of understand this

particular history it was an unfortunate combination that happened they couldn't

plant you know the pilgrims wanted to plant Vineyards because wine is a really good alcoholic drink Thomas Jefferson

you know saw that when he was an um Ambassador in France at the beginning of

the French Revolution French didn't get drunk and he he he was trying so hard to

get B culture going and he just wasn't able to do it because of the climate on

the east coast of course today it's a very different situation sure yeah so I think this is this is a time to have

this kind of a conversation and to say okay what happened in our particular country why is our relationship with

alcohol Al so tumultuous and difficult going from you know extreme pendulum swings from drinking it all to over

overindulging again not not drinking at all to overindulging and so my Hope was

with my bookup overflowing is to say let's talk about it and then let's as communities as families communities as

as as as as a society let's make this a public conversation and then say there

are good ways forward there are good ways to think about how to include wine

in a very healthy and wholesome wine and how to teach children to be careful with

distilled Spirits sure that's and um and I think if we have that conversation

like we are having today Lauren we bring it out into the open I think a lot of families are

relieved it's there you know think about all the you know I mean I don't have my own children but in North America you

know children can only start drinking when they are 21 they will be at college

with their peer that is not a great place to learn how to enjoy wine

responsibly and then the kind of alcohol they drink is not healthy or good it's

cheap liquor people get drunk and it's like we need to we need to help fam say

no and the church too I think the church has always been called to be

prophetic we are meant to show the world how to live how God intended it well God

gave the gift of wine so we really should be thinking hard about okay what is this gift why it is so prominent in

the Bible and in the history of the Christian church and then what does it mean to embrace it in healthy and

wholesome ways and then show the culture how to do it sure yeah no that makes

perfect sense so um for somebody that has a history of struggling with this um

what would you say to somebody who's like okay I recognize that this is a good gift that God gave and I want to

have some experience with it where should the where what what boundaries did you grow up with what did you see

modeled for you that would help you to recognize this is too far and maybe not have the desire or the temptation to

cross that line yeah yeah um that's a great question and again I I have

written that in an appendix in overflowing but one of the the the really important things is that we don't

drink before 5:00 p.m usually okay yeah so um I know in France they do it

differently but in Germany where I am from we don't usually drink before 5:00 P p.m of course on a Sunday or a special

celebration after church mom would make a roast and um we would have some wine

with the roast and then we would all take a nap and then go for a walk that was our Sunday routine you know so but

and um so we wouldn't drink um before 5:00 p.m. and certainly not every day

sure and and then we would um share wine wine was always something that we shared

and we sat together around the table with food and so um you know it was

associated with a certain lifestyle right um and I think that's really important and because you know we

received wine in the Lord's Supper in the church I always understood that

that's something very special and there studies done that show that children who

are socialized into drinking wine in a religious or family context are less

likely to abuse it which makes perfect sense yeah it's the the whole forbidden fruit thing right if you're that you

can't have something until a certain age then it's got a Mystique to it that it won't otherwise potentially when and we

are we we are withholding the gifts of God for his people because if you do it in a

wholesome way you know together in celebrations it can really Elevate meals

to special uh celebrations and bring joy and conviviality and laughter in really

really beautiful ways so you know that's what I grew up with and I thought oh it it you know I didn't um people didn't

come to the winery to get drunk and in our culture there was this understanding you don't drink before five and people

who did you were like okay that's not right and um um and then um also there

was within the culture it was um you know we have these wine festivals during

the summertime these medieval Villages that we go to and there's a little bit of traditional music playing and people

sit together they have some wine they have some food and they just enjoy a good time together and so these are the

kind of rituals and practices that really taught us as children that the

good thing and we enjoy it but there are boundaries around it sure and um I don't

know if you talk about this in any of your books but uh the concept of the centenarian cultures where so many of

them include wine as part of the traditional experience I am assuming

like people will speculate that this is RIS veratrol because it's antioxidant and all the rest of it and I'm sure there's probably something to that but I

wonder to what extent it's the fact that it becomes the social lubricant and it creates that Community what what's your

take on that well the respirator um question is um you know they have done

studies on mice and fed them a lot of respirol and that's what the um you know

that's when the health benefits come in you'd have to drink a lot of wine for

that to really big I I mean there are um compounds in wine that are I think very

good it's very different from beer or uh distilled spirits but I think it's hard

to um unpack that um and I think you know I mean of course in the in the in

the medical research they're trying to do that and there are so many contradictory studies there are yeah but

I think I think that's really important to realize that um the health benefits

you know and you mentioned that go beyond what the scci you know Sciences

can sort of Trace through observation in the body it um it looks at for example

wine can be really beautiful to enjoy Beauty right

something really positive for you to experience and it will help your health sure absolutely Joy you know in Psalm

104 it says God gave wine to make glad the hearts of humanity now think about

joy and laughter and how healthy that is yeah absolutely yeah in the conviviality

yeah in the in the social bonding in the community that happens so I think that

all works together in organic ways sure to uh bring health and uh healing and I

think I I think you're right that you know wine really is an invitation to the table these people also eat healthy food

you know I GRE up we have a family garden we always ate very very healthily

and um that is another part of the the picture you know if we

want to think about health and healing it's a holistic thing and one aspect is

food another aspect is life around the table right um Lauren for the first time

in human history families do not eat together anymore think about that yeah think

about all the things that happen at the table that's where we learn what it means to be human this is where we learn

how to be in conversation this is where we learn how to be civil this is where we learn how to have good arguments this

is where we process our day this is where our family bonds are developed and

strengthened so that you can then send your children out and they will have a certain um um sense of um who they are

and whom they belong to and they can weather the storms of school and mobbing

and all of these things so much better yeah so you know when we talk about wine

we also need to talk about the table and to reclaim the table absolutely and so I think you're right this is it's an

invitation to a life away from the screens away from hectic Lifestyles away

from too many activities for children right to be together as families um invite some strangers along

or some people who are alone and then celebrate life and do it every day light a little candle to realize

life around the table is sacred yeah processing processing your day and your

emotions and um allowing that inner life to be really nurtured and developed

rather than you know shutting it down and um sort of numbing yourself with

various activities that is not good for our mental health yeah no that makes perfect sense

so and in medicine there's a concept called hormesis it's actually in Pharmacology where the dose makes the

poison is what that literally defi is is means and it's where you small amounts

of a substance that are beneficial if you give large amounts of that same substance then it becomes detrimental so

some of the studies with respect to Wine in particular show that there's essentially like a U-shaped curve where

if you don't drink at all like then you're kind of at a certain risk factor if you drink a little bit and that

little bit varies by the study your risk actually goes down for a lot of various

different types of chronic disease and then once you start drinking excessively the risk goes up dramatically as well so

there's that sweet spot just like what you're talking about yeah yeah yeah and I think that's very very important it's

about you know we we drink wine regularly and I used to you know I am 57

now I used to be able to sort of drink two glasses of wine not not every day but I you know for special occasion but

now I realize you know I'm I'm getting older my body can't handle it as well so I just drink one glass a day and I think

that's really moderation has always been important and I think that's what the Bible also um encourages is this

moderate amount but you also have to realize that like with any other food

you not only in you know a lot of medical studies don't distinguish between distilled Spirits beer and wine

but then also they don't distinguish between um organic wine biodynamic wine and commercially produced wine

commercially produced wine um all the pesticides and herbicides and all the

additives I don't drink that wine because I know my my husband had cancer

and um we um he's he's doing well we are you know we very very thoughtful about

um the kind of um um food and um groceries that we buy we buy our meat

from a regenerate farmer we have local organic farmers that we buy our produce from and um we don't go out a lot when

we go out we go to a farm to the table restaurant where we know the ingredients are good and um so I think um we just

need to be mindful of that and learn about that not just with wine but also

food in general because there are so many people ill I mean over 50 million

Americans have an autoimmune disease ni I have been teaching at um an honors

college 50% of those students were ill and had intestinal problems and um you

know when I look at their diet and what they eat at the on campus it's all junk food and we have

normalized food slowly kills us right yeah absolutely so um you've mentioned

the commercially produced wine and then you said organic wine and then you said a third one what was that bi biod

Dynamic something a biodynamic wine this is a approach to agriculture that takes

organic yeah a step further and it looks at the the the interdepend

interdependent Community not only of a farm but also you know they work with

the cycles of the Moon okay in terms of when they do certain things um on the

winery or the farm and there's also this spiritual Dimension it's it's a bit on

the esoteric side but I as a theologian like to engage with it because the world

was created by God therefore it is spiritual true soil is a living um

organism that is not just matter out there in the biblical World soil is

spiritual yeah it is something that God created and actually the first human being in the Bible

Adam in Hebrew it's Adam Adama means of the soil oh does it I did not know that

interesting yeah so think about that this close connection that we have in the soil and so biodynamic is really a

very fascinating um approach to Agriculture and it's interesting that a burgundy

where I take my people on a wine pilgrimage is that's where the monks and nuns really took off with vidic culture

and planting Vineyards and um having that part of their mission in the world but it's also the region has really um

Pioneer pioneered um biod dnamic uh vitic culture and the biodynamic wines

are so much more vibrant I mean yeah it's we have a wine shop in t Town

actually I'm I'm I'm doing an event for them soon and they only have organic and biodynamic wines they're the owners are

Christians yeah they want to help heal the Earth they want to help Young a younger uh generation teach you know how

to have a glass of wine and some shakuri in conversation they create that kind of a cultural understanding in their wine

shop so I to drink them quite a bit and they're they are more expensive yeah I

bet and so you you know you don't drink a lot of it but when you do it is

wonderful you can tell yeah absolutely right uh you alluded earlier to some of

the spiritual insights of historical you know monks and whatnot you mentioned

Bernard of clero can you tell that story I'm curious so um it really you know the

benedictines um really took off in the sort of 10th Century in Clooney and they

built this massive Cathedral and you know Agriculture and planting Vineyards was part of what Benedict had told them

to do you know you you worship God and then you do manual labor and um you

study and um they became massively successful and um you know also a little

corrupt and so um there needed to be a reform movement and that was the cians and actually I'm taking my wine

pilgrims to se to where it all started and so they reemphasized the importance

of worship in agriculture that every monk had to do manual labor that sort of

everyone is equal like Christ had said they wear the same um outfit they wear they eat the same food and they all do

manual labor and um and bened ICT um you know had um in his rule laid out this um

way of life that included um Agriculture and um really it was the benedictines

and Sans through their development of Agriculture they laid the agricultural

foundation for Western Civilization to emerge because if you don't have a

regular provision of food and drinks you know you can't grow and um you know the

population just exploded sure Bernard of clo was a very very he came from a very

well-to-do family and decided to become a monk and was very charismatic and so

lots of young men followed him actually they say that a lot of families when Bernard of clo came into town hit their

young men because they didn't want them to follow Berard he wrot um beautiful

beautiful sermons on the song of songs he grew up in the wine region so he was very familiar with it so the song of

songs resonated deeply with him but the Sans um um you know really developed the

idea of the sort of the crew you know that a a certain parcel of land um is is

more suitable for certain grape varieties and they sort of perfected um

the wine growing idea and for them of course crafting wine was an act of

worship they wanted to make really beautiful wine to worship God and then of course what else but really really

beautiful wine could hold the presence um of Christ into the blood of

Christ and so they they they contributed so much and burgundy one of the most

well-known wine regions uh with most of some of the most expensive wines in the world um you know owe their um their

understanding in their Vineyards to those monks and I take our pilgrims to

ABI s vion which was a satellite of Clooney and those monks planted some of

the most famous Gro crews in the world and it's vitners who are gathering all

this money together to rebuild the Abbey and every year when we go back they've

added something new oh how they want to they want to make it into a cultural center and I'm trying to convince them

to make it into a spiritual center there we go that's fantastic very cool so what

have I not asked you that you want to make sure you leave with our audience

um I um hold uh wine tastings as a spiritual

practice and um with every wine I offer a little meditation and I'd like to sort

of leave you with the first one and the last one so usually we have around six wines and the first one I always um

start with to drink is to pray to binge drink is to sin and the Light Between

praying and sinning is sometimes a really fine one fair enough can see that yeah and

then I usually end the you know with the sixth wine I um end with a saying that's

from where I come from and it goes like this wine is God's way of kissing

Humanity that's beautiful I love it so where can

people go to learn more about you well um you can go to my website um

either under the spirituality of wine or G and um we have this new video series

come out called wine in the word that I did together with Randy frzy who is a

very seasoned Pastor also passionate about wine and I think with this video video series and the study guide we

really want to get that conversation out into the Christian Community and say

join us discover this gift but also learn how to embrace it well and how to

develop the wisdom around a a healthy and wholesome enjoyment of wine yes I

love it this has been such a unique conversation gizela I really appreciate it thank you very very nice to meet you

Lauren and have this conversation and do spread the the good news in liquid

form amen

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