'Milestone to Manhood' - Interview with Steven Arms

welcome back to another episode of

christian natural health today i am

excited to have steven arms with us

steven lives in portland oregon with his

wife emily and is the proud father of

two young children in his book milestone

to manhood stephen shares his first hand

experience of his rite of passage

weekend with his dad and reflects on how

it shaped him into the man that he is

today welcome stephen thanks for joining

us

thanks for having me yeah so uh tell me

what inspired so you co-wrote this book

with your dad which is the coolest

tell us a little bit about what inspired

the book why did you feel like our

culture was kind of right for that

sure yeah i wrote the book with my dad

um

it really centers around a rite of

passage weekend that he actually

organized for me when i was growing up

on my 13th birthday

um

and a rite of passage is it's an event

in a boy's life that he can look back on

and say this was the moment that i

became a man

and my dad organized a weekend

with my grandfather and with my uncles

um they took me away there were a few

different rituals

uh sharing exercises discussions about

manhood biblical manhood

um

and some prayers

and that was the weekend that i can look

back on in my life and know

that's when i became a man in my

father's eyes

and ever since then i never really

questioned kind of my status as a man

yeah wow so and you have brothers too

did they go on these because what are

you second in four okay so yeah on the

second of four boys um each of my

brothers had one of these rights of

passages as well

and then all of my cousins did too so

we did do um rite of passages for the

the girls of the family

but that was kind of

um yeah but that was always organized by

the females by the woman right so the

women attend the rite of passages for

the girls and the men attend the rite of

passages for the boys okay so you

mentioned like your your dad and grandpa

and uncles but were like was your older

brother at yours were you at your

younger brothers or no so my older

brother should have been at mine but he

was actually sick that weekend

so he didn't come but

what once you're kind of initiated into

manhood

um then you are

then you attend the weekends for the

younger siblings and younger cousins as

well so i did go to

my younger brothers and my younger male

cousins

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and one thing about the weekend is that

we always kept the weekend a secret

so the

the next boy

in line didn't know that it was coming

so it always

made the boy feel very special and

unique you know that the family went

through so much organization to hold a

weekend like this for him

um and he didn't know it was coming so

it was always a secret oh i love it

that's so cool so what stands out in

your memory from your experience

anything in particular

i mean i remember a lot of the weekend

um

if there was one thing

that i would say was a takeaway for me

it was that

i was accepted as

one of the members of the tribe of men

in my family

that i could go to them

um with with anything moving forward uh

through ups and downs in life if i ever

had questions or was struggling with

something in my life i could always

refer back to

these men in my life in my family

they told me that their their proverbial

doors were always open to me and that

they would always have my best interest

in at heart so

whatever i came to them with any of my

struggles or fears or doubts

um they wouldn't judge me and that they

promised to help me through

those times so great yeah so and why now

for the book what made you guys decide

that the culture was right for that book

right now well good question um

for one it has to do with our family um

like i said we always kept the weekend a

secret so we didn't really talk much

about it in a in public settings

um during family events because we

wanted it to be a secret for all of the

the kids and the grandkids of the family

um

now my youngest cousin andrew just had

his rite of passage

in 2020 so

when he had his rite of passage it was

like well now we're we've all been

initiated there's no more of this

generation right um

so now we can talk about it openly so

that's when we decided well now that our

whole family has had this rite of

passage why don't we put together what

we've learned in a book and share it

with the rest of the world so that other

families can benefit from it in the same

way that ours has yeah that's great very

cool

and so uh you describe that there's

three components to the rite of passage

what are they

so

there's three components that make up

any rite of passage right uh to take a

step back

a rite of passage is an event in a

person's life that marks the transition

from one stage in life to the next so

um an example of a rite of passage might

be like a high school graduation

ceremony

so um

high school is ending their school is

ending you have a rite of passage event

a high school graduation ceremony and

then

their their next chapter in life whether

that's college or vocation or working

life

starts next

another example would be a wedding

ceremony

right single life is ending you have a

wedding ceremony which gives you

emotional closure that

single life is ending and that a new

chapter in your life your married life

is beginning so

a rite of passage isn't unique to

a 13 year old coming of age

but

there's three elements that make up any

rite of passage

there's a separation

so you have to be separated from your

normal

comfort zone

from your sphere of influence

there's a challenge or a journey

um that gives the boy

uh a chance to rise to the occasion and

prove himself as a man

and then there is the reintegration back

into society no longer as a boy but as a

man very cool so those are the three

elements

so what kinds of challenges are

typically involved in these weekends

yeah so for us um

the challenges were mostly sharing

exercises so uh it wasn't you know the

boys in our family i wasn't sent off

into the wilderness to go kill a deer or

survive by myself for three months right

um in other cultures you know in tribal

societies that's appropriate right but

for our society today that just wouldn't

be helpful

for a boy to make the transition to

manhood right um so

my dad and my grandfather when they made

up this weekend um

they decided that our

quote unquote challenges were going to

be discussions amongst the group about

what it means to be a good man what it

means to be a godly man

um and some other exercises uh

one of them is called the ribbon

ceremony

uh the ribbon ceremony each of the man

each of the men come before the weekend

prepared with

uh ribbons that have

qualities that they see in themselves

both good and bad

so

uh

the the ribbons might say

hard-working

faithful and honest

and then he might have three ribbons

that say

greedy

lustful

and selfish

and then

the man explains to the group why he

wrote down what he wrote down

and then it's the boy's opportunity to

untie from

the man stick

any qualities that he wants to take from

the man and leave the qualities behind

that he doesn't want to take

so

ideally the boy is left with a stick

full of

positive character traits that he sees

in these men that are close to him that

he wants to emulate in his life yeah and

then the men are left with their

negative character traits which it's

their responsibility to take those home

and to work on them to get rid of them

like with god's help of course yeah with

god's help of course yeah one of the

elements of the weekend is that we light

a fire in the cabin in a wood stove and

we keep that fire

lit for the entire weekend yeah and

that fire represents god's presence you

know fire is a symbol for the holy

spirit okay yeah and

so the fire you know keeping the fire

lit the whole weekend represents that

need in our lives to always maintain the

flame of faith right sometimes it's

hotter sometimes it's colder but the

most important thing is that you never

let it become fully extinguished

um

and actually so at the end of the ribbon

ceremony the men who have their negative

character traits

they actually place

excuse me they actually place their

ribbons in the into the fire which

represents one their desire to burn away

their defects and two

their reliance upon god to do so i love

it

so the weekend is full of different

rituals like that that are kind of the

quote-unquote challenge element of the

rite of passage weekend right that's

awesome so and for you and also for the

other men in your family what did you

see

in terms of

maybe the way you carried yourself for

different perspectives going into the

weekend even though you didn't know was

coming versus coming out what what what

do people

experience as part of that change

you know i would say primarily the

benefits of the weekend for me

were long term you know i mean

i experienced this weekend as a 13 year

old now

as a teenager i had my ups and downs

like anyone you know i wasn't miss i

wasn't a perfect child you know as a

teenager

um

but it was really in my

in my college years that

um

it was really my college years that i

realized what a blessing that this

weekend was

and

um as i was saying earlier you know i

think the biggest way that it impacted

me was knowing that i could

rely back on these men and that i was a

man in their eyes um

when i was in college i really started

to doubt my faith and i stopped going to

church i didn't know if i believed in

god or wanted to continue to practice my

faith you know um college was a big

transition for me like a lot of people

because

i didn't have my family

going to church with me every sunday

anymore right it was kind of all on me

now

and to be honest i kind of floundered

there for a bit and

i wasn't sure if um

i

i knew that i needed to seek guidance

but i wasn't sure

what my dad or my mom would think about

me questioning my belief in god or if i

told him i wasn't going to church

anymore so i had a lot of uh

internal turmoil you know i didn't know

what to do and ultimately it was in

college that i looked back on and i said

i i really i remembered you know during

this weekend they said that if there's

anything that i need to talk to them

about that

they would have my best interest at

heart and that they would not judge me

and that they would help me through

anything yeah and so that's when i took

my dad and my grandfather up on that

offer for the first time was in college

and i told him kind of my doubts and

what i was going through and

they

you know they were able to share more

about why they believe in god and their

own faith journeys with me and they

didn't answer every single one of my

questions but they definitely were able

to

um help me back on the road help me back

on the straight and narrow and

you know hindsight is 20 20 who knows

what would have happened otherwise but

uh

i can honestly say that i'm not sure

that i would be practicing my faith

today if it wasn't for this weekend and

um the relationships that i established

during that so like i said i think

primarily the benefits of this weekend

are a long-term benefits you know i was

a pretty typical teenager but it wasn't

until my 20s that i realized like wow

this

i i come from an amazing family and um i

have men in my corner that will help me

mm-hmm yeah absolutely so and obviously

if a kid doesn't have her boy doesn't

have this experience of the rite of

passage they still ultimately become an

adult what do you see is kind of like

the difference between adulthood and

manhood

yeah

for me you know i look back and i know

the exact moment that i became a man

right it was the end of my rite of

passage weekend and

my dad and my grandfather and my uncles

told me that in their eyes you are now

you are a man in our eyes

um so i know the exact moment that i

became a man and it was at 13. now i

didn't become a legal adult until 18

years old right

my my dad didn't kick me out of the

house and say i have to get a job get my

own apartment at 13. that wouldn't have

been appropriate

um

i think that manhood

is

it's about the way that you treat other

people

um

i think that a man

primarily thinks of others before

himself and a boy thinks of himself

before others

and i think a 13 year old

is capable of

manly behavior in that way so i don't

think that 13 is too early to initiate

him into manhood

now he's not a full-grown adult yet so

like i said um he's not gonna get his

driver's license at 13.

um

but

so i think there is a difference between

manhood and adulthood i mean certainly

there are many

male adults today in their 20s 30s and

beyond who don't act like men but they

act like boys yes yes and specifically

you're defining that as that kind of

internal focus on themselves as opposed

to what they can do to serve the world

around them

exactly yes

so um this whole concept of toxic

masculinity is kind of a buzz word these

days

you kind of describe the opposite as

virtuous masculinity i think you kind of

touched on that but can you expound on

the concept of of how this can help

transform us culturally

yeah um

virtuous masculinity i would say is

using our strength as men for the

benefit of others um

you know the bible says

that husbands need to love their wives

the way that christ loved the church

right and the way that christ loved the

church was a sacrificial type of love

right he died for our sins

um it wasn't necessarily a sentimental

type of love right um it definitely

wasn't a selfish type of love it was a

very selfless love

and i think that that's the type of

virtuous manhood that each one of us

men are called to right um women too in

a slightly different way um

toxic masculinity i think that

you know it's

to be honest i i don't think that

they're

when when kind of the the more liberal

side criticizes manhood um

it's

they're not a hundred percent wrong you

know they

it's true that there are a lot of men

who don't act like men they act like

boys and they end up hurting people you

know

and i think that's why this whole idea

of toxic masculinity

developed is because there are a lot of

men who fail to

uphold the standards of

true virtuous manhood you know so

uh

i heard it i heard it said once that

the left is really good at

describing the problems at lo finding

the problems they're just really bad at

making good solutions

yeah absolutely

and so i i don't think that they're

wrong in saying that there are

toxic men out there that are bad men but

not every man is a toxic man there are

lots of virtuous men too so

i wish that those people who have been

hurt by men could experience what it's

like to be loved by

a good holy virtuous man as well you

know i wish that everyone

had a relationship with a man like that

in their lives yeah absolutely well and

as you say since there's a description

of you know what's wrong out there

without necessarily an answer

the book is kind of targeted on the

family the nucleus but do you have

anything to say about you know kind of

like broader how do we take this message

and send it out to the world and say

this doesn't have to

things don't have to stay broken

you know i think that

a big part of it and the problem that

we're at in our culture today is that

men are not acting like men like i was

saying and that's why

you know these people are saying all

these toxic males and they're

criticizing masculinity because of the

failure of some men

and i think that i think that's somewhat

of a fair criticism

um i would say that

one way that we can fix that

is that if fathers

told their sons at the appropriate age

son i consider you to be a man in my

eyes now

and if every father in this country did

that to their sons

maybe it's at the age of 13 maybe it's

15 maybe it's 18. but if they did it at

the appropriate age

i think that

the boys would no longer feel the need

to prove their manhood to themselves

whether that's violence

or

video game addictions right slaying you

can slay the dragon in a video game

the sexual conquest of women trying to

get your manhood by

um through

through sleeping with a woman

all of those are just ways that boys are

trying to prove themselves as men

but if a father just affirmed affirms a

boy

masculine identity by saying

in my eyes i see you as a man

then the boys wouldn't feel the need to

do those type of things

because the father has affirmed his

masculine identity yeah yeah that's

great so and this of course is reminding

me of jesus rite of passage that's in

scripture can you talk a little bit

about that and how that plays into this

sure yeah so

um

you know

growing up i never really understood the

story of the finding of jesus in the

temple right it just kind of seems like

a story that's included in the gospels

but it's kind of like what the heck is

going on there you know i mean for many

years i didn't really understand that

one

but it was really in the research of

writing this book that

i

came to find out that the story of

finding jesus in the temple was his rite

of passage and that was

the the story of him making the

transition from boyhood to manhood

and there's a few reasons why i say that

one is um

the gospel writer tells us that it

occurred at the age of 12 years old

right he's very specific in including

that detail

12 years old is right around that age of

entering into teenage years puberty

starting right it's right at that

transition between boyhood to manhood so

that's an important detail

um the second part is that it

the story

follows the three elements of a rite of

passage so

there's a separation jesus is separated

from

his parents in the caravan

they don't know where he is he's lost in

the city of jerusalem you know here he's

a 12 year old boy i mean could you

imagine if you lost one of your kids in

jerusalem you know it would be

terrifying right

um and then there's a challenge so

he's

ultimately he's at the temple engaged in

discussion about scripture with priests

and scholars of of scripture

um so here's a 12 year old you know

obviously

he's he is the word he's god so he knows

it better than these grown men do but

he's having

a discussion about

the scripture with these grown men

right um

and then finally there's a reintegration

back into

his family right his mom and dad

ultimately find him

and if you look at how jesus talks to

his mom after

um you know he doesn't go running back

into her arms crying and saying i'm

sorry

right he she says something along the

lines of

why did you do this to us didn't you

know how worried we would be and he says

what are you talking about didn't you

know that i would be in my father's

house you know the way that he says it

it comes off as kind of cold and

um

almost callous you know but

he says it in a way that a man would say

like of course i would be here you know

he the way that he talks is how a man

would talk not as how a boy would talk

um so

jesus experienced the rite of passage

in the in the story of the finding of

jesus in the temple now his rite of

passage doesn't look 100 percent like

what our rite of passage in our family

looked like you know um

but then again i think we can all agree

that he was a little bit different than

you know you and me the rest of us for

sure yeah yeah not where i thought you

were going to go with this i was

expecting you to talk about you know god

opening the heavens and saying you are

my beloved son and then going out into

the wilderness but i would not have

thought of that one i could totally see

it though and it's the right age

so

well i think it's safe to say that both

are kind of a rite of passage like i

said you know rights of passages don't

only occur at the age of 13. that's kind

of that the leap from boyhood to manhood

or

girl hood to womanhood

but we do experience rites of passages

at other times in our life as well right

like high school graduation college

graduation so

i think the baptism of jesus

where he started his public ministry

officially he kind of went from this

private figure to a more public figure i

think that's safe to say that that's

right of passage as well sure yeah

absolutely so is there anything i have

not asked you that you want to make sure

you leave with our audience

um

i don't think so i mean i would say you

know if people want to find more about

the more information about the book they

can visit our website which is

milestonetomanhood.com

they can also pick up the book on amazon

just type in milestone to manhood

into the search bar and it'll pop up

awesome so i will include those in the

show notes and thank you steven so much

for your time and for writing this book

sounds like it's something our culture

really needs oh thank you thanks for

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