Michael Rubino: Mold Testing and Treatment

welcome back to another episode of

christian natural health today i'm very

excited to have michael rubino back with

us michael rubino is an air quality

expert who helps bridge the gap between

the air and our homes and its direct

impact on our health and he is the

founder of change the air foundation

rubino works for over 100 doctors

globally to not only raise awareness but

also provide solutions to correctly

identify and remove the pollutants

caused causing this global health crisis

as president of home cleanse rubino

specializes in working with people who

are immunocompromised or have acute or

and sustained reactions to mold exposure

and he's helped heal over a thousand

families including celebrities and

athletes he's also a council certified

mold remediation supervisor and a

contributing member sponsor and speaker

for the indoor air quality association

he's the author of the mold medic and a

contributor to mind body green he's been

featured on gwyneth paltrow's uh the

goop podcast and the goops website randy

glanville's unfiltered podcast luke

story forbes usa today and bloom tv to

name a few he hosts the youtube series

mold talks where guests include medical

experts as well as mold recovery

patients including media icon atuza

rubenstein welcome michael thanks so

much for joining us oh thank you so much

for having me yeah

so let's talk about building materials

first of all why is this such a

prevalent issue why are so many

buildings contaminated with mold

especially you know the older ones but

also it seems like the newer ones too

what's what's going on

you know it's really just the way we

build our homes um it's pretty

problematic and it's a global crisis

it's not just here in the u.s but

particularly here in the u.s we either

use

cementus products

like stucco and and things like that we

also use a lot of stick frame and

drywall

and i think drywall really creates that

situation where it becomes one of the

bigger problems because it is porous

because it can hold moisture

and it can allow mold to grow and mold

can grow in as quickly as 24 to 48 hours

we also have bacteria component right

leeks typically

come from the outside

they can bring bacteria with them and

when that happens now we have mold and

bacteria so it's kind of this perfect

storm that we don't want to have inside

of our homes especially when homes are

built and uh for those listening a lot

of people say uh when they have mold in

their homes and when it's too costly to

fix you know maybe i should just build a

new home and unfortunately we've seen a

pretty big trend of mold in new

construction homes as well and so

there's a lot to be said with how we're

building homes how we're maintaining

homes how we're restoring homes that

kind of allows us this problem to

perpetuate right so what's

from the building standpoint what's the

solution either building new homes or

renovating new homes what are some of

the things for people to be aware of

okay so when you're building a new home

there's uh there's what's called the

structural buildings components

association they issue guidelines

essentially of how to store products

when you're building a home how to build

homes correctly

you know a lot of different guidance on

that and one of the things that i notice

not only in my own backyard but from

dealing with other clients all over the

country as well

builders are improperly storing

materials before they're building the

home so for as an example framing when

it's delivered to a work site it's

supposed to be elevated on a platform

it's supposed to be wrapped in plastic

and both ends are supposed to be left

open for ventilation and as you drive

through america right now and you're

looking at new construction homes a lot

of these a lot of the lumber is just

sitting in the soil which has a lot of

mold and bacteria by the way

and it's not elevated off of the soil

it's not wrapped in plastic and and it's

and even if it is they're not allowing

it to ventilate so there's a lot of

mistakes that happen um when lumber sits

in the soil it's gonna rain right and

you're going to transfer mold and

bacteria from the soil and onto the

lumber that's typically what you see you

start to see mold all over the lumber

a lot of these builders are uneducated

on that process

it allows them to believe

something like oh that's just lumber

yard mold or oh that's you know that's

just part of the process um you know

there's there's really no such thing as

lumber yard mold mold is mold there's a

hundred thousand different species so we

wanna be a little more careful when

we're building new homes uh and of

course when we're maintaining and

restoring them too you know if you're if

you are if you do have water damage and

you are making repairs you want to make

them correctly so that you don't leave

behind uh mold and bacteria right right

right so yeah that's interesting because

i'd always kind of thought with the

building of a new home you'd be most

likely vulnerable if the guts were

exposed during a big monsoon or a big

brainstorm or something but you're

saying that even if it's just sitting in

the soil you're still potentially

vulnerable

absolutely because you're going to have

a moisture content that that's in the

soil um especially when it rains

so you know that moisture can transfer

to the lumber and you got to think about

it also the way the lumber is stacked

right it's stacked on top of the soil so

there's trap moisture between the soil

and the lumber

you get any sort of moisture

transference that transfers through the

two by fours you're gonna have where

those two by fours are touching together

you're gonna have trap moisture in

between them too so it really creates a

a situation where it's very easy for

mold to grow because if moisture is

trapped uh it's going to stay wet longer

and it only takes 24 to 48 hours for

mold to start to grow so it kind of puts

us into this situation where you know we

have to be more diligent about it

so if somebody suspects that their home

or their workplace or their school or

something has a mold problem

what do we do to screen for it how do we

make sure that the people are who are

doing the testing know what they're

doing what kind of questions should we

be asking well that is a great question

right because uh in my industry it's

kind of a little bit like mean girls

where everybody has their own way of

doing things and if it's not their way

you know you're you're wrong um and so

we have a lot of people that are in this

industry that have been doing it for you

know 20 30 years that are just so used

to air testing and it's like anything

outside of air testing they just want

nothing to do with it

and that creates a lot of problems

because air testing only tests a very

small circumference of air

you're not really getting a full picture

even a 10 by 10 room if you really

wanted enough data to be able to compare

to you'd probably want to take 10 air

samples in there different different

spaces inside the room to get a full

accurate picture because

a colleague of mine just did a study

that they took an air test just three

feet away from a source a visible source

and it showed nothing and they went two

feet away they started to show it a foot

away and it was off the charts right so

you know it kind of kind of goes to show

how limited air testing can be

i have a product called the dust test

that's coming out hopefully by the time

this airs it'll already be out uh you go

over the dusttest.com

it's a screening tool

and you know it's kind of like when you

go to a doctor and you say i have some

things wrong the doctor's going to

screen you right they're going to try to

look for different biomarkers that are

creating some sort of uh situation where

they can understand what's happening um

we want to do that with the home you

know and air testing is not screening

air testing is very targeted you have to

use it in a targeted fashion to really

understand it'd be like you know just

checking for vitamin d right you're

you're just checking for one thing it's

very targeted the screen

is actually meant to analyze your dust

and and why you want to do that is

because when you have sources inside

your home they're constantly producing

particles

these particles air solids they settle

in

in the same locations that your dust

settles in so floors horizontal surfaces

a little bit on the walls too

but

by collecting that dust and utilizing

pcr technology you're actually able to

see the dna of what is actually there

it is foolproof

because you'll you'll for for the first

time understand what am i being exposed

to

now of course with any technology

there's limitations right so what's the

limitation on this it's not going to

tell you where it's coming from

so but this is the first step let's

figure out what's what's there then

let's figure out where it's coming from

and the mold industry has led people

down this path for so long where

you did air testing right and you tried

to see if there was any abnormalities in

the air well it's an incorrect screening

technology

air testing is better used when you're

trying to figure out where those sources

are coming from

and so once once you know the species

and the abnormalities how much is there

then you do air testing to figure out

where is that ketomium coming from where

is that aspergillus coming from and now

you'll actually be able to fix your home

without this uh fear of you know not

being able to remediate your home right

okay so

so doing air testing is almost like

playing hot cold

like as you get closer it'll get more

and more of it exactly

gotcha and so the dust test that you're

referring to how's that different from

an army or is that basically the same

thing

it uses similar technology so the ermey

stands for the environmental uh mold

index the relative mold index and um the

reason why

we actually want to move away from irmi

and i'm going to explain why really

quickly the reason why we want to move

away from irmi is because

all it is is a calculation and an

algorithm of the sum of logs in group

one subtracted from the sum of blogs in

group two

and the problem with that is is that if

you have more outdoor molds and indoor

molds it's gonna make it look like your

house is perfect

well we actually wanna we actually don't

want to look at the score we want to

look at the data right

is this 10 times higher than than what

an average home should have is this 100

times higher or a thousand times higher

is there we're looking we want to look

and be able to see the dna of what's

there how many spores or fragments per

milligram of dust there is

because that can kind of give us a clue

as to

is this just a little bit of mold that's

normal because it's part of our

ecosystem or is there blaringly obvious

sources that are producing this much

particulate that's getting into the body

and causing some sort of adverse health

reaction and by looking at the data and

stop looking at the score

you know we can actually do something

with that gotcha okay so once you get a

positive dust test um then when you're

starting to do the air samples where

should you focus your attention where do

you where the what are the likely

culprits

well you know the main culprits

typically are always in a home is any

sub-grade spaces like a basement or

crawl space you know those are always my

go-to they usually are damp environments

that create a lot of problems so that's

a great place to start to look addicts

can be another one you have roof leaks

you have

poor ventilation

if you have a spray phone home and you

don't have a dehumidifier up there then

the humidity inside your home has

nowhere to go could create a mold

problem up there you also want to pay

attention to where your hvac systems are

located sometimes they're located in the

attic sometimes they're located in the

basement and when you have a

contaminated attic or basement with hvac

system it's getting into the ac system

it's circulating around the home and

once that happens now your hvac system

will be contaminated and will it need to

be cleaned at the very least

so you know you kind of want to look at

those areas of course kitchens bathrooms

you know any any potential where water

can can leak or intrude

around doors and windows is another

typical thing that we see you know

windows leak

sometimes it's not abundantly obvious

and you need to kind of look for signs

outside the home

but you know these are these are some of

the hot spots that typically happen of

course laundry rooms can be another one

um wherever your hot water heater might

be there can be leaks there

so you're you're looking where you're

the questions you're asking is where's

where is where's a damp environment and

where are all the plumbing fixtures

located because anytime there's a

plumbing fixture there always is some

some variability of potential leaks

and so once you're at the stage of you

found the location you found there is

mold you found where it is and then

you've got a remediation company coming

in how do you make sure that they're

doing what they need to do what are the

questions that you need to ask to make

sure that they're doing what they should

and all of that

well that's another great question you

know i think once you have the report

you know step one is finding somebody

who is going to who a knows how to read

that report and make sure that they're

going to be able to

address what is found in that report

and b i think you need to figure out

what sort of guarantees they have yeah i

can't tell you how many contracts that

i've read um for clients that have said

you know what does this mean right and

when you read the the terms of the

contract it basically means that they

guarantee nothing that you're just

paying for labor and materials right and

if it doesn't pass

you have to pay them again to try again

and the key word is try right anyone

who's not willing to guarantee that

means that

all they're doing is trying they don't

actually know how to resolve it and so

that that's really part of the problem

you want to make sure that if somebody's

touching your home they're going to

guarantee something right for sure yeah

and so what about people who are in a

position where they can't remediate

either they don't own the home or it's

an apartment or they're it's a workplace

and they're not you know their their

boss isn't willing or the hr department

isn't willing what would they what do

you recommend people do just to improve

quality of air flow as much as possible

yeah there's there's uh basically three

strategies here you have um

dehumidification right that that'll help

you control the climate if you're you

know in a workplace and you notice that

the humidity uh is a little higher than

it should be maybe it feels sticky or

damp

a dehumidifier would definitely help

with that

you take away the sign of moisture

mold's ability to reproduce is going to

be

hindered a bit it won't completely

eliminate but it's definitely going to

make the air quality a little better in

terms of the ability for mold or

bacteria to produce particles

the second thing you'd want to do is air

air purification you know

remove particles are being put in the

air want to remove those from the air so

that they're not opportunistically

getting inside the body

another strategy is cleaning right so we

talked about how these particles

aerosolize they settle where our dust

settles well when we have an abundance

of dust we're going to have an abundance

of particles

and so

the more less opportunity you have for

dust and particulate to enter your body

the better off you're going to be so

cleaning is important and how to clean i

think is also pretty important you know

staying away from brooms

that are going to sweep stuff up into

the air

you know doing more of a wet wiping

process you know like spraying down the

floor and then mopping it spraying down

your furniture and then wiping it this

is going to be much more successful to

suppress that dust and particulate from

re-airsolizing

that makes sense and so if somebody has

a

disaster a water disaster there was a

big storm or they have a big leak or

something what are the what do you

recommend people do right away to try to

prevent mold from becoming an issue

so the key is the there's there's two

keys um first off you have a flutter

disaster uh the first thing that you

want to do is you want to remove the wet

building materials that's step one

because and obviously this depends on

how long ago the leak was right because

we talked about mold grows in 24 to 48

hours if you catch it early on enough

and it's before 24 hours

open up all those those wet building

materials remove the drywall remove the

insulation

because even if you bring in

dehumidifiers

the industry standard is it takes three

to five days using fans and

dehumidifiers to appropriately dry a

space that's that's the average could be

more right so

what we want to do is we don't want to

let things things stay wet for three to

five days it's already become a mold and

bacteria problem by that point so you

want to remove all the building

materials

then then bring in dehumidifiers and dry

out the space

and i think that's really key if it's

been more than 24 hours don't risk it

you know follow follow microbial

protocols meaning set up containment set

up engineering controls remove it just

as you would if you had mold because

it's very likely that you do at that

point gotcha okay and you referenced air

filters what are some of your favorites

what are the things to look for for a

good air filter

so the the best thing to look for in an

air filter is how small of a particle

can it remove

okay i try to i try to stay away from

any jargon that says we kill everything

and we destroy everything because you

know from that perspective there's so

many unknowns there

right like especially a spore right a

spore's not actually alive it's not

alive until it's met with water uh and

that that water gives it the ability to

grow into an organism kind of like how a

seed becomes a plant right a plant is

alive a seed is not

so uh you know anything that's designed

to kill things would be like if you went

out into your backyard and just tried to

kill all these seeds you would look a

little ridiculous well that's the way i

look at all of these companies producing

products to try to kill stuff right it

just doesn't make sense

we want to just remove right and how do

you remove you just trap it in the

filter when the filter is uh no longer

working at its efficiency you discard

the filter you put in a new one all

those particles that are now trapped in

that filter have just been removed right

we want to remove particles so the

smaller the particle can remove the

better and that's the key to any air

purifier um you know there's a couple

companies that i that i'd like in the

ability to remove a small particle

intellipure being one um intellipure has

an amazing product that goes into your

hvac system to stop these particles from

getting to your hvac which will stop it

from becoming contaminated which is

highly effective

i'm also interested in molecules

technology at the moment i'm still kind

of working with them and testing their

products but

an independent study shows that the pico

filter is able to remove a particle as

small as point one nanometers which

would be uh revolutionary uh in that

sense and so you know there's newer

technologies that come out every single

day it's it's an exciting time for

people becoming more aware of how

important our health is and so i think

for anyone listening who's looking to

find the best air purifier see what's in

your budget right because budget's

important

and see what what within your budget can

remove as small of a particle as

possible

okay so intellipure and then what was

the other

molecule molecule okay

so if somebody after they've done the

mold remediation and they've

they've gotten rid of the mold exposure

they've done the binders to get rid of

any lingering mycotoxins and all of that

kind of stuff somebody still struggles

with hypersensitivity what do you

recommend that they do for the next step

at that point

if somebody is still struggling with

hypersensitivity after they've had

remediation it means one of two things

either there's still a source somewhere

producing particles that was not

identified and this happens right

there's

especially if you have a larger home

there's a lot of different uh you know

cavities interstitial spaces um nobody

has x-ray vision so yeah it's kind of

that that process um

the other thing it could be is that

there are still particles in their

environment that they're reacting to

and what that means is that maybe the

remediation company came in and removed

sources but they didn't address the hvac

system they didn't address what is

already in their dust created by those

sources uh they didn't address maybe

cleaning some of their contents right

and so with that being said if that's

not part of the overall plan you're

likely to still react even though they

did some work

so you really want to make sure that

you're looking at both things again back

to that screening tool screening is the

best way to do this

you collect dust you analyze that dust

you're looking for different uh species

and hyphal fragments

of what's there

and if your army as an example

that technology that that the numbers

showing of how much is there per

milligram of dust if that's still high

uh then obviously there's uh still a

problem there either it needs to be

cleaned or there could be a source so

that's where screening comes back into

play towards the end of things

to just make sure that

the cleaning was done right and that

there's no other sources still producing

particles

okay so is there anything that i have

not asked you that you want to make sure

you leave with our audience

um you know there's always a a plethora

of topics to discuss around this uh you

know and it's impossible to cover

everything i think you've covered uh

really all the basics for somebody on

this journey um you know i i'd love to

just make a comment for those who maybe

have um family members who don't

understand what they're going through um

you know and and are having a hard time

connecting uh with those to explain the

process you know you have to remember we

take over 20 000 breaths per day

and you know if if we

the greatest route of exposure is

through inhalation we learn that with

covid we learn that with pretty much

through ev through studying every

disease on this planet uh and when we

when we understand that you know

inhaling particles of mold and bacteria

that's a very real thing

and it's it's easy for us um especially

if you're not studying this on a daily

basis it's easy to just think that

i don't see i don't see the connection

there but the reality of it is there are

most of the things in our life that

really make us sick are too small for us

to even see and that's why we have the

biggest problem connecting the dots

we learned through kovit there is

something that was uh four to seven

nanometers in size that was invisible to

the eye that can make us sick

and so when we look at all this stuff

when we put it together

it makes a lot of sense why people are

are are affected by it um

i also know that people struggle

understanding why

one person you know may be adversely

affected the other person doesn't really

seem to be bothered as much and

obviously there's a lot of variables

there but going back to covet as an

example because it's so relatable

i may have lost my sense of taste and

smell someone else may have just had

flu-like symptoms but have their taste

and smell and so we have to remember

that every single individual and every

single person is different

we're all going to have different

reactions to different contaminants in

our environment and so we don't want to

just

deny somebody um you know what's

happening because it's not happening to

us and i i encourage people to listen to

their loved ones when they are going

through this uh and really try to

understand even though it can be

difficult you know try your best to

understand

and do your homework

absolutely so where can people go who

want to find out more about you

well you can go to the moldmedic.com if

you'd like to learn more about me as a

person the book that i wrote about the

subject and everything in between a lot

of the uh stuff that i'm doing as a

person you can go to

changetheairfoundation.org

if you're looking to

know more about the nonprofit that i had

started

we have a wonderful team of people and

we're really looking to change uh change

change things and how things work in

america

the way we build our homes the way we

regulate mold and bacteria in our homes

water damage etc and and really create

that information so people get the right

information and don't make mistakes

and then if you need our need of service

we have a company it is a for-profit

company called home cleanse and it does

uh remediation all over the country uh

we are accepting uh applicants for other

countries as well in terms of working

with clients overseas and we also

are producing our first product the home

the dust test that i mentioned earlier

to connect people with the evidence they

need to see if there is a problem in the

first place

and we have some other really cool

things coming out in the near future

fantastic well i will link to all of

that in the show notes and thank you so

much michael for all your time and

wisdom really appreciate it yes thank

you so much for having me

are you looking for a holistically

minded healthcare practitioner who truly

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unfortunately even in the alternative

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