Michael Andrews: The Influential Christian

welcome back to another episode of

christian natural health today i am very

excited to have mike andrews with us

mike is the author of the influential

christian learning to lead from the

heart he is taught and preached in a

number of churches across the country

for over for the past 30 years he

retired as an engineer from the

telecommunications industry after

directing several research and

development projects in addition to his

degrees in electrical engineering mike

has a masters of divinity and a doctor

of ministry he's an ordained minister

affiliated with the churches of christ

welcome mike thanks so much for joining

us

thank you for inviting me i appreciate

it absolutely so i just love the topic

of your book so can you give us a little

brief synopsis of what exactly it's

about

um it's about influence that is um

long-term influence not just the

the short-term kind that is so prevalent

in our society today you know when

people think about influence today they

often think about

persuasion marketing

sales even coercion and manipulation and

and that is a form it's a very

short-term form and it works very

temporarily and

all of us i think want to have some kind

of lasting influence

and um because we know what influence is

like in our own lives when people

connect together with us and so what

this is about is the kind of long-term

influence that's based on connection the

kind of connection that we have heart to

heart with people and how to develop

that and i think the best way to develop

that is the skills of empathy and so

that's what book focuses on uh primarily

is how to

uh develop empathy interesting okay so

first can you define empathy i think a

lot of times people will confuse that

empathy and sympathy so how would you

distinguish those

i i view it as

any time that we value another person's

thoughts feelings experiences

relationships we value who they are and

we encounter them with that value in

mind whether it's called empathy or

sympathy

as long as we enter in with compassion

it probably doesn't matter too much what

we call it um but i don't really tend to

make distinctions too much i like the

term empathy because it's a little bit

broader gotcha okay so um why do you

feel like this is particularly relevant

for america right now

well um

as as i've looked into this topic the

more i look into it the more i

really am convinced that the only way

that we're going to bridge many of the

divides that we have between us today

the kinds of polarization and

oppositions and animosity that we have

between people

is if we take the initiative to

encounter the other person where they

are

and not as

not as we assume they are

and

and that requires some form of empathy

and and really i think that's the only

way that that's going to happen

and

um

so i i think that's um why it's

important for us today because i don't

think there are any other approaches

that are working

yeah for sure so and

because the world is so polarized right

now how do you feel like empathy can

help us to begin to understand people

with whom we disagree and maybe find

common ground or a good relationship

it's it's difficult no matter how we do

it what we call it whatever

to to um move beyond the gaps that are

between us is a difficult thing to do

and and honestly we can't wait for the

other person to bridge that gap because

in our society

we are um

um

peop

we are encouraged to increase the gaps

rather than decrease the caps i guess

this is what i'm trying to say and

so in order to

bridge those gaps we have to be willing

to take the initiative to move in the

other person's direction that's not

always going to work well um there are

times when when people are not going to

reciprocate and but that doesn't mean it

doesn't help i think

empathy always helps and we need those

kinds of skills rather than assuming

that there are some people who can do

that and some people who just don't um

that is one view of empathy that it's

kind of innate you either have it or you

don't um i i don't subscribe to that

view i think that

people can develop it it's kind of like

a developing a virtue where you move in

the direction of something so that you

can become more like that and in a

christian framework

we allow the spirit to help us in that

direction to move that way so it becomes

kind of like a spiritual discipline like

prayer or

meditation or scripture reading or

singing or

things that put us in a position where

god can work with us i think empathy is

a lot like that particularly when when

we when the goal of our empathy is to

love the other person

then i think it becomes very much like

that kind of of

virtue or spiritual discipline and and

god will help us move

that way but we we've got to take the

initiative and that's what's hard um

particularly with people who are used to

talking it's hard to begin listening and

and the first step in empathy really is

to value and listen to the other person

gotcha gotcha so in your book you kind

of break down some of the processes of

what you should focus on step by step

with the holy spirit's help in order to

begin to cultivate this

yes um i start off talking about what

what it kind of looks like what a

practice of uh engaging in empathy looks

like and and what it looks like is is um

what you can think of as genuine

presence really really being present

with people and also really being

trustworthy so i talk about that for a

while and then i uh talk more about the

individual

skills that can be developed that move

us in the direction of empathy and um

you can tell i'm uh i've had some

preaching experience because my

description of those skills is

alliterative it's a three-point

uh

it's um where we move in the direction

of reception

reflection and response and just a

nutshell

reception is when we when we listen when

we learn to dialogue when we learn to

value the other person

and understand where where they're

coming from so that we're not just

wrapped up only in our own story but we

hear the other person's story right

and then reflection is when we um

think about that and we look at the

assumptions behind what we're thinking

and look for where there's meaning

things that we can work on together we

um quite often uh what we find is that

we and the other party that we have a

disagreement with

both really want the same thing it's

just that how we see

to get there is different and then the

third step um is response where we start

to learn how to be responsive to people

and responsible to people and to society

so those are those are the steps and i

think this book is uh somewhat unique in

actually

providing some road map for how to uh

get out there beyond ourselves and

actually make some things happen right

how to cultivate that and so what would

you say is the difference between just

like a cognitive understanding of where

somebody is coming from versus empathy

um well empathy i think has a number of

components and and one of them is our

rational thinking cognitive

understanding of the other person's

thinking but it's also um

an appreciation and uh acknowledgement

and recognition of the other person's

emotional uh content what they are

feeling uh it even goes beyond those and

enters into the relational

realm where we have uh some engagement

with the other person

a lot of times when empathy is is

discussed

it's discussed uh primarily from an

emotional point of view

um and sometimes with a cognitive point

of view but but seldom is it is it

discussed with both in view and i think

really those have to be balanced um

there's a there's a balance between the

cognitive and the effective or the

emotional that we've got to keep

otherwise we end up um if we're if the

you know if the um

empathy that we're showing

is too much on the emotional side

sometimes what we'll do is lose

um our notion of of self

and we'll get so wrapped up in the

emotion or the other person that we um

don't distinguish between what

we're feeling what they're feeling and

uh when it's too cognitive and not

enough emotion then it becomes actually

sort of manipulative um

in in my book i i

associate these different uh aspects of

of empathy

different extremes of empathy with some

of the characters in the peanuts uh

comic strip

and

the most notable one is

lucy for example who is uh she she

considers the other person but only from

a um

a cognitive rational point of view not

the emotional point of view and she

actually becomes

manipulative and coercive in the process

of doing that and that's a good example

of how empathy can kind of um get too

extreme in one direction or another

interesting so i feel like from a

christian standpoint we might maybe make

an analogy between law and grace sort of

is there some some of that there i think

i i think there is that kind of tension

or balance or um combination of things

together um there's a number of

combinations that work with empathy

another

balance that we have is the balance

between our our awareness of our self

and our awareness of the other person so

um

we don't get too um absorbed in our own

view of what the other person is going

through nor do we get so absorbed in the

other person's view of what they're

going through that we lose any sense of

boundaries so

there's a number of tensions or balances

here and i like between law and grace i

think that's

that's truth and grace would be another

way of saying that perhaps um

that is a good way to balance it

yeah i like that you bring that out of

the idea of if you're too

empathic in the emotional sense you lose

the sense of boundaries i think there's

a lot of people who work with others to

try to help them you know people in

counseling and people in those kinds of

professions that can easily fall off

into that other side and then learn how

to create those boundaries so that they

can be emotionally healthy in order to

help others so i i see that

um because those boundaries are so

important there are some authors who

actually claim that empathy is a bad

thing that that people who exhibit

empathy are actually

uh exhibiting sin

in their lives because the way they view

it is that it's only emotional and

they're and only about the other person

without boundaries and self-awareness

so that we lose our self-identity and we

compromise our souls ourselves uh into

the other person and that's just an

extreme form it's not it's not empathy

in every um

you know manifestation of it that's just

an extreme distorted form of empathy

that they're railing against yeah nearly

everything there's a balance you have to

you could fall off one side of the horse

or the other so yeah totally see that um

and how do you see empathy translating

into influence maybe from a leadership

standpoint

well that's that's a the perfect

question for for the topic that i'm

dealing with because influence

in its in its um long-term effects

has to do with connection

connection between people heart-to-heart

kind of connection and you know

connection is something that we all

really we all crave down deep

we go about it different ways but we all

crave it and and so that's one of the

reasons why this is so important and

empathy

is really the quality that creates those

connect connections

it's

what causes us to

engage with people and be in other

people's lives and allow them into ours

to be open to other people so that

they're also open

to us and together we can

explore

our relationship together so empathy is

kind of the foundation for how to make

those connections and the connections

are what make influence last

if you think about the people who have

really been the most influential on your

life

as i think about people who've been

influential in my life they're the ones

that i've connected with in some way

there may not have been a strong

intention on their part to connect with

me but i i felt a connection with them

and therefore

in the end really found myself wanting

to imitate something about them to

follow on with some of the things that

they said

that they really had an impact on my

life

because of that connection right yeah so

i mean people aren't going to listen to

what you think until they know how much

you care about them absolutely yeah that

makes sense

um so and why is it helpful i mean i

guess the hearing and valuing people's

stories is sort of what what transitions

into that that empathy of hearing where

they're coming from so that you can

actually make that connection and then

kind of guide in a leadership standpoint

essentially yes

yes our stories are are really vital for

this whole

attitude this whole approach um but we

have to remember that there's more going

on than just our own story uh in our

society today we are encouraged to share

our own story and that's and that's

important that's really important but if

we're not hearing the other person's

story then we're just kind of talking to

the walls and

we're not really walking in the other

person's shoes we're just trying on

if we don't know what it's like for them

to walk in their shoes we're just trying

on another pair of shoes it's not we're

not really being empathetic and so we

have to hear people's stories we have to

appreciate them um and really show an

interest and a curiosity and value to

them

you know there are a lot of uh

tips and techniques for how to show uh

sympathetic or empathetic uh

attitudes to people you know like eye

contact and and and moving forward and

and acknowledging what people say in

that but i heard one speaker say one

time that if you're really interested in

the other person you don't have to worry

about all those techniques your interest

will show right and and so so it's

really in our own heart that first we've

got to be able to

see how we can value the other person if

we if we don't

then

then nothing's uh going to happen

there's a an expert um

in

mentoring whose last name is aguilar who

uh made the point that

um if we don't

value the other person um

if we

we're never gonna have an influence if

we think the other person sucks

so yeah absolutely it starts it starts

in our own hearts i mean do we value the

other person and and that's where the

dialogue where the listening begins yep

just like

it all goes back to love right yes yes

absolutely absolutely so uh what have i

not asked you that you want to make sure

that you leave with our audience

oh that's that's a

that's a tough question i i'm used to uh

sort of um just answering what people

have to say i guess one of the things

that's prominent today

is the notion of what it means to be an

influencer

and and

the way a lot of people use that term

that's really not what we're talking

about here

i'm not talking about here about

imposing the way i see something on

other folks or even selling it to them

or persuading them

what we're talking about here is

engagement a kind of engagement that we

all really want to have

and that we value when we know we've had

it um so it's it's different it's it

means uh being

really present

um and really trustworthy

and and there are a lot of elements to

those things uh that make that happen

and

hopefully uh becoming more receptive uh

and more reflective on those

relationships will help us in that

direction yep absolutely so where can

people go to learn more about you

the best the easiest place is probably

to my website which is

mwandrews.com mwandrews.com

you can also find the book um on amazon

or

independent bookstores websites um

almost everywhere it's the influential

christian learning to lead from the

heart awesome so i will link to that in

the show notes and thank you so much

mike for joining us really appreciate

your insight and your wisdom

thank you i've enjoyed this very much

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